44 New York opinions name it 5 courts 1903–2024 3 in the last five years
The cases below were cited by New York courts in a sentence that names this issue. Sides come from how each citing opinion treated the case (Syfertize flag on that citation), so a case can appear on both: that is where the law is contested. A red or yellow chip is the case's own overall treatment.
| Case | Followed | Cited |
|---|---|---|
Gruen v. Chasegreen2 sentences2018In the student disciplinary context, due process entitles an accused student to "the names of the witnesses against [him or her], the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing" ( Matter of Gruen v Chase , 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; accord Matter of Lambraia v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton , 135 AD3d 1144 , 1146 [2016]; see Matter of [*8]Schwarzmueller v State Univ. of N.Y. at Potsdam , 105 AD3d 1117 , 1119 [2013]). 2018In disciplinary proceedings at public colleges, " [d]ue process requires that the [accused students] be given the names of the witnesses against them, the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing'" ( Matter of Lambraia v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton, 135 AD3d 1144 , 1146, quoting Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 ). | 5 | 7 |
WEICHERT, SUSAN M. v. BROWN, ROY A.green2 sentences2017Here, we conclude that those basic requirements of due process were met (see Budd, 133 AD3d at 1342-1343; Matter of Schwarzmueller v State Univ. of N.Y. at Potsdam, 105 AD3d 1117 , 1119 [2013]). 2017Here, we conclude that those basic requirements of due process were met (see Budd, 133 AD3d at 1342-1343; Matter of Schwarzmueller v State Univ. of N.Y. at Potsdam, 105 AD3d 1117 , 1119 [2013]). | 4 | 4 |
Kalinsky v. State University of New Yorkgreen2 sentences2013Petitioner’s due process rights were not violated inasmuch as he was given written notice of the charges prior to the hearing, the name of the witness against him, the opportunity to present a defense and have the assistance of an advisor at the hearing, and a statement detailing the factual findings, evidence relied upon and discipline imposed (see Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; Matter of Rauer v State Univ. of N.Y., Univ. at Albany, 159 AD2d 835, 836 [1990]; Matter of Mary M. v Clark, 100 AD2d 41, 43-44 [1984]; cf. Matter of Kalinsky v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton, 1 2013Petitioner’s due process rights were not violated inasmuch as he was given written notice of the charges prior to the hearing, the name of the witness against him, the opportunity to present a defense and have the assistance of an advisor at the hearing, and a statement detailing the factual findings, evidence relied upon and discipline imposed (see Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; Matter of Rauer v State Univ. of N.Y., Univ. at Albany, 159 AD2d 835, 836 [1990]; Matter of Mary M. v Clark, 100 AD2d 41, 43-44 [1984]; cf. Matter of Kalinsky v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton, 1 | 4 | 4 |
Nawaz v. State Universitygreen2 sentences2017In a case such as this involving a public university, “[d]ue process requires that the petitioner[ ] be given the name of the witnesses against [her], the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing” (Nawaz, 295 AD2d at 944 ). 2017In a case such as this involving a public university, “[d]ue process requires that the petitioner[ ] be given the name of the witnesses against [her], the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing” (Nawaz, 295 AD2d at 944 ). | 3 | 7 |
County of Oneida v. Shahgreen2 sentences2017Contrary to the court’s conclusion, the fact that we did not set aside its premature verdict when the appeal was previously before us did not preclude it from considering further proof or making new factual determinations (cf. People v Cunningham, 95 NY2d 909, 910 [2000]; see generally People v Mitchell, 144 AD3d 1598, 1600 [2016]). 2017Contrary to the court’s conclusion, the fact that we did not set aside its premature verdict when the appeal was previously before us did not preclude it from considering further proof or making new factual determinations (cf. People v Cunningham, 95 NY2d 909, 910 [2000]; see generally People v Mitchell, 144 AD3d 1598, 1600 [2016]). | 3 | 3 |
Mary M. v. Clarkgreen2 sentences2013Petitioner’s due process rights were not violated inasmuch as he was given written notice of the charges prior to the hearing, the name of the witness against him, the opportunity to present a defense and have the assistance of an advisor at the hearing, and a statement detailing the factual findings, evidence relied upon and discipline imposed (see Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; Matter of Rauer v State Univ. of N.Y., Univ. at Albany, 159 AD2d 835, 836 [1990]; Matter of Mary M. v Clark, 100 AD2d 41, 43-44 [1984]; cf. Matter of Kalinsky v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton, 1 2013Petitioner’s due process rights were not violated inasmuch as he was given written notice of the charges prior to the hearing, the name of the witness against him, the opportunity to present a defense and have the assistance of an advisor at the hearing, and a statement detailing the factual findings, evidence relied upon and discipline imposed (see Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; Matter of Rauer v State Univ. of N.Y., Univ. at Albany, 159 AD2d 835, 836 [1990]; Matter of Mary M. v Clark, 100 AD2d 41, 43-44 [1984]; cf. Matter of Kalinsky v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton, 1 | 2 | 3 |
People v. Cunninghamgreen2 sentences2017Contrary to the court’s conclusion, the fact that we did not set aside its premature verdict when the appeal was previously before us did not preclude it from considering further proof or making new factual determinations (cf. People v Cunningham, 95 NY2d 909, 910 [2000]; see generally People v Mitchell, 144 AD3d 1598, 1600 [2016]). 2017Contrary to the court’s conclusion, the fact that we did not set aside its premature verdict when the appeal was previously before us did not preclude it from considering further proof or making new factual determinations (cf. People v Cunningham, 95 NY2d 909, 910 [2000]; see generally People v Mitchell, 144 AD3d 1598, 1600 [2016]). | 2 | 3 |
Boyd v. State Universitygreen2 sentences2016Generally, “[d]ue process requires that the petitioners be given the names of the witnesses against them, the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing” (Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; see Matter of Boyd v State Univ. of N.Y. at Cortland, 110 AD3d 1174 , 1175 [2013]). 2016Generally, “[d]ue process requires that the petitioners be given the names of the witnesses against them, the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing” (Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; see Matter of Boyd v State Univ. of N.Y. at Cortland, 110 AD3d 1174 , 1175 [2013]). | 2 | 2 |
Junk'n Doughnuts Inc. v. Department of Consumer Affairs of the City of New Yorkgreen2 sentences2013Petitioner was provided with fair notice of the charges and hearing dates, an opportunity to present a defense and a fair hearing that comported with due process (see Matter of Kosich v New York State Dept. of Health, 49 AD3d 980, 981 [2008], appeal dismissed 10 NY3d 950 [2008]). 2013Petitioner was provided with fair notice of the charges and hearing dates, an opportunity to present a defense and a fair hearing that comported with due process (see Matter of Kosich v New York State Dept. of Health, 49 AD3d 980, 981 [2008], appeal dismissed 10 NY3d 950 [2008]). | 2 | 2 |
Rigle v. Dainesgreen2 sentences2013The Administrative Law Judge (hereinafter ALJ) did not abuse her discretion in denying petitioner’s untimely, last minute request for an adjournment of the agreed-upon second day of the hearing (see id. at 982-983; see also Matter of Rigle v Dairies, 78 AD3d 1249, 1251 [2010], appeal dismissed 16 NY3d 825 [2011]). 2013The Administrative Law Judge (hereinafter ALJ) did not abuse her discretion in denying petitioner’s untimely, last minute request for an adjournment of the agreed-upon second day of the hearing (see id. at 982-983; see also Matter of Rigle v Dairies, 78 AD3d 1249, 1251 [2010], appeal dismissed 16 NY3d 825 [2011]). | 2 | 2 |
Rauer v. State University of New Yorkgreen2 sentences2013Petitioner’s due process rights were not violated inasmuch as he was given written notice of the charges prior to the hearing, the name of the witness against him, the opportunity to present a defense and have the assistance of an advisor at the hearing, and a statement detailing the factual findings, evidence relied upon and discipline imposed (see Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; Matter of Rauer v State Univ. of N.Y., Univ. at Albany, 159 AD2d 835, 836 [1990]; Matter of Mary M. v Clark, 100 AD2d 41, 43-44 [1984]; cf. Matter of Kalinsky v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton, 1 2013Petitioner’s due process rights were not violated inasmuch as he was given written notice of the charges prior to the hearing, the name of the witness against him, the opportunity to present a defense and have the assistance of an advisor at the hearing, and a statement detailing the factual findings, evidence relied upon and discipline imposed (see Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; Matter of Rauer v State Univ. of N.Y., Univ. at Albany, 159 AD2d 835, 836 [1990]; Matter of Mary M. v Clark, 100 AD2d 41, 43-44 [1984]; cf. Matter of Kalinsky v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton, 1 | 2 | 2 |
Abrahamian v. City Universitygreen2 sentences2013Finally, the determination is supported by substantial evidence in the form of the victim’s statement to police and her testimony at the hearing (see Matter of Abrahamian v City Univ. of N.Y., 170 AD2d 233, 233-234 [1991]; see also Matter of Willett v City Univ. of N.Y. [CUNY] Law School, 231 AD2d 642, 643 [1996], lv denied 90 NY2d 801 [1997]). * Rose, McCarthy and Garry, JJ., concur. 2013Finally, the determination is supported by substantial evidence in the form of the victim’s statement to police and her testimony at the hearing (see Matter of Abrahamian v City Univ. of N.Y., 170 AD2d 233, 233-234 [1991]; see also Matter of Willett v City Univ. of N.Y. [CUNY] Law School, 231 AD2d 642, 643 [1996], lv denied 90 NY2d 801 [1997]). * Rose, McCarthy and Garry, JJ., concur. | 2 | 2 |
Willett v. City University of New York (CUNY) Law Schoolgreen2 sentences2013Finally, the determination is supported by substantial evidence in the form of the victim’s statement to police and her testimony at the hearing (see Matter of Abrahamian v City Univ. of N.Y., 170 AD2d 233, 233-234 [1991]; see also Matter of Willett v City Univ. of N.Y. [CUNY] Law School, 231 AD2d 642, 643 [1996], lv denied 90 NY2d 801 [1997]). * Rose, McCarthy and Garry, JJ., concur. 2013Finally, the determination is supported by substantial evidence in the form of the victim’s statement to police and her testimony at the hearing (see Matter of Abrahamian v City Univ. of N.Y., 170 AD2d 233, 233-234 [1991]; see also Matter of Willett v City Univ. of N.Y. [CUNY] Law School, 231 AD2d 642, 643 [1996], lv denied 90 NY2d 801 [1997]). * Rose, McCarthy and Garry, JJ., concur. | 2 | 2 |
Kosich v. New York State Department of Healthgreen2 sentences2013Petitioner was provided with fair notice of the charges and hearing dates, an opportunity to present a defense and a fair hearing that comported with due process (see Matter of Kosich v New York State Dept. of Health, 49 AD3d 980, 981 [2008], appeal dismissed 10 NY3d 950 [2008]). 2013Petitioner was provided with fair notice of the charges and hearing dates, an opportunity to present a defense and a fair hearing that comported with due process (see Matter of Kosich v New York State Dept. of Health, 49 AD3d 980, 981 [2008], appeal dismissed 10 NY3d 950 [2008]). | 2 | 2 |
Rigle v. Dainesgreen2 sentences2013The Administrative Law Judge (hereinafter ALJ) did not abuse her discretion in denying petitioner’s untimely, last minute request for an adjournment of the agreed-upon second day of the hearing (see id. at 982-983; see also Matter of Rigle v Dairies, 78 AD3d 1249, 1251 [2010], appeal dismissed 16 NY3d 825 [2011]). 2013The Administrative Law Judge (hereinafter ALJ) did not abuse her discretion in denying petitioner’s untimely, last minute request for an adjournment of the agreed-upon second day of the hearing (see id. at 982-983; see also Matter of Rigle v Dairies, 78 AD3d 1249, 1251 [2010], appeal dismissed 16 NY3d 825 [2011]). | 2 | 2 |
Schwarzmueller v. State University of New Yorkgreen2 sentences2018In the student disciplinary context, due process entitles an accused student to "the names of the witnesses against [him or her], the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing" ( Matter of Gruen v Chase , 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; accord Matter of Lambraia v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton , 135 AD3d 1144 , 1146 [2016]; see Matter of [*8]Schwarzmueller v State Univ. of N.Y. at Potsdam , 105 AD3d 1117 , 1119 [2013]). 2017Here, we conclude that those basic requirements of due process were met (see Budd, 133 AD3d at 1342-1343; Matter of Schwarzmueller v State Univ. of N.Y. at Potsdam, 105 AD3d 1117 , 1119 [2013]). | 1 | 5 |
Lambraia v. State Universitygreen2 sentences2018In the student disciplinary context, due process entitles an accused student to "the names of the witnesses against [him or her], the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing" ( Matter of Gruen v Chase , 215 AD2d 481, 481 [1995]; accord Matter of Lambraia v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton , 135 AD3d 1144 , 1146 [2016]; see Matter of [*8]Schwarzmueller v State Univ. of N.Y. at Potsdam , 105 AD3d 1117 , 1119 [2013]). 2018In disciplinary proceedings at public colleges, " [d]ue process requires that the [accused students] be given the names of the witnesses against them, the opportunity to present a defense, and the results and finding of the hearing'" ( Matter of Lambraia v State Univ. of N.Y. at Binghamton, 135 AD3d 1144 , 1146, quoting Matter of Gruen v Chase, 215 AD2d 481, 481 ). | 1 | 2 |
MTR. OF ABDUR-RAHEEM v. Manngreen1 sentence2024In addition, contrary to petitioner's remaining contentions, the record does not establish that the Hearing Officer "was biased or that the determination flowed from the alleged bias" ( Matter of Amaker v Fischer , 112 AD3d 1371 , 1372 [4th Dept 2013]) or that petitioner was denied the opportunity to present his defense ( see generally Matter of Abdur-Raheem v Mann , 85 NY2d 113, 124 [1995]; Matter of Thomas v Annucci , 193 AD3d 1356, 1357 [4th Dept 2021]). | 1 | 1 |
Crane v. Kentuckygreen1 sentence2024RIVERA, J.: Every person accused of a crime is constitutionally presumed innocent and entitled to a fair trial and the opportunity to present a defense (see U.S. Const Amend VI, XIV; NY Const art I, § 6; Estelle v Williams, 425 US 501, 503 [1976] [“The right to a fair trial is a fundamental liberty secured by the Fourteenth Amendment” and “(t)he presumption of innocence, although not articulated in the Constitution, is a basic component of a fair trial -1- -2- No. 24 under our system of criminal justice”]; Crane v Kentucky, 476 US 683, 690 [1985] [“Whether rooted directly in the Due Process Cl | 1 | 1 |
Matter of Thomas v. Annuccigreen1 sentence2024In addition, contrary to petitioner's remaining contentions, the record does not establish that the Hearing Officer "was biased or that the determination flowed from the alleged bias" ( Matter of Amaker v Fischer , 112 AD3d 1371 , 1372 [4th Dept 2013]) or that petitioner was denied the opportunity to present his defense ( see generally Matter of Abdur-Raheem v Mann , 85 NY2d 113, 124 [1995]; Matter of Thomas v Annucci , 193 AD3d 1356, 1357 [4th Dept 2021]). | 1 | 1 |
Estelle v. Williamsgreen1 sentence2024RIVERA, J.: Every person accused of a crime is constitutionally presumed innocent and entitled to a fair trial and the opportunity to present a defense (see U.S. Const Amend VI, XIV; NY Const art I, § 6; Estelle v Williams, 425 US 501, 503 [1976] [“The right to a fair trial is a fundamental liberty secured by the Fourteenth Amendment” and “(t)he presumption of innocence, although not articulated in the Constitution, is a basic component of a fair trial -1- -2- No. 24 under our system of criminal justice”]; Crane v Kentucky, 476 US 683, 690 [1985] [“Whether rooted directly in the Due Process Cl | 1 | 1 |
California v. Trombettagreen1 sentence2024RIVERA, J.: Every person accused of a crime is constitutionally presumed innocent and entitled to a fair trial and the opportunity to present a defense (see U.S. Const Amend VI, XIV; NY Const art I, § 6; Estelle v Williams, 425 US 501, 503 [1976] [“The right to a fair trial is a fundamental liberty secured by the Fourteenth Amendment” and “(t)he presumption of innocence, although not articulated in the Constitution, is a basic component of a fair trial -1- -2- No. 24 under our system of criminal justice”]; Crane v Kentucky, 476 US 683, 690 [1985] [“Whether rooted directly in the Due Process Cl | 1 | 1 |
Smith v. Coughlingreen1 sentence2021The Hearing Officer appropriately rejected as unreasonable petitioner's demand to view approximately two weeks of video footage to assess whether he could be heard soliciting an assault from his cell, particularly given that the footage was rendered redundant by the testimony presented on that point and could not rule out that the alleged conduct had occurred via other means ( see Matter of Rodriguez v Coughlin , 211 AD2d 926, 927 [1995]; Matter of Smith v Coughlin , 161 AD2d 1082, 1082-1083 [1990]). | 1 | 1 |
Rodriguez v. Coughlingreen1 sentence2021The Hearing Officer appropriately rejected as unreasonable petitioner's demand to view approximately two weeks of video footage to assess whether he could be heard soliciting an assault from his cell, particularly given that the footage was rendered redundant by the testimony presented on that point and could not rule out that the alleged conduct had occurred via other means ( see Matter of Rodriguez v Coughlin , 211 AD2d 926, 927 [1995]; Matter of Smith v Coughlin , 161 AD2d 1082, 1082-1083 [1990]). | 1 | 1 |
People v. Castleberrygreen1 sentence2019Defense counsel's misunderstanding of the override — as evidenced by his erroneous statement that defendant's prior felony conviction for a sex crime resulted in "an automatic override" to a risk level three classification — deprived defendant of the opportunity to present factors in support of a downward departure; similarly, County Court's misapplication of the override — premised upon the court's mistaken belief that "a mandatory override to a risk level [three] status" was "required" — foreclosed any inquiry into whether the presumptive risk level three classification was in fact warranted | 1 | 1 |
People v. Pacegreen1 sentence2019Defense counsel's misunderstanding of the override — as evidenced by his erroneous statement that defendant's prior felony conviction for a sex crime resulted in "an automatic override" to a risk level three classification — deprived defendant of the opportunity to present factors in support of a downward departure; similarly, County Court's misapplication of the override — premised upon the court's mistaken belief that "a mandatory override to a risk level [three] status" was "required" — foreclosed any inquiry into whether the presumptive risk level three classification was in fact warranted | 1 | 1 |
| Gordon v. Browngreen | 1 | 1 |
| Goss v. Lopezgreen | 1 | 1 |
| Matter of Weber v. State Univ. of N.Y., Coll. At Cortlandgreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Massiegreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Millergreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Collinsgreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Fiumefreddogreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Felicianogreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Stampsgreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Andersongreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Smithgreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Melendezgreen | 1 | 1 |
| People v. Gilmoregreen | 1 | 1 |
| Cuevas v. Cuevasgreen | 1 | 1 |
| Case | Negative | Cited |
|---|---|---|
| No negative-treatment citations attached to this issue in New York. Read the followed side critically anyway. | ||
| Case | Cited | Years |
|---|---|---|
People v. . Molineux
green
1 sentence2024Under our system of justice, the accused has a right to be held to account only for the crime charged and, thus, allegations of prior bad acts may not be admitted against them for the sole purpose of establishing their propensity for criminality (see People v Molineux, 168 NY 264 [1901]). | 1 | 2024–2024 |
Amaker v. Fischer
green
1 sentence2024In addition, contrary to petitioner's remaining contentions, the record does not establish that the Hearing Officer "was biased or that the determination flowed from the alleged bias" ( Matter of Amaker v Fischer , 112 AD3d 1371 , 1372 [4th Dept 2013]) or that petitioner was denied the opportunity to present his defense ( see generally Matter of Abdur-Raheem v Mann , 85 NY2d 113, 124 [1995]; Matter of Thomas v Annucci , 193 AD3d 1356, 1357 [4th Dept 2021]). | 1 | 2024–2024 |
| People v. Reynolds green | 1 | 2019–2019 |
| People v. Denny green | 1 | 2019–2019 |
People v. Taylor
green
1 sentence2019Defense counsel's misunderstanding of the override — as evidenced by his erroneous statement that defendant's prior felony conviction for a sex crime resulted in "an automatic override" to a risk level three classification — deprived defendant of the opportunity to present factors in support of a downward departure; similarly, County Court's misapplication of the override — premised upon the court's mistaken belief that "a mandatory override to a risk level [three] status" was "required" — foreclosed any inquiry into whether the presumptive risk level three classification was in fact warranted | 1 | 2019–2019 |
People v. Edney
green
1 sentence2019Defense counsel's misunderstanding of the override — as evidenced by his erroneous statement that defendant's prior felony conviction for a sex crime resulted in "an automatic override" to a risk level three classification — deprived defendant of the opportunity to present factors in support of a downward departure; similarly, County Court's misapplication of the override — premised upon the court's mistaken belief that "a mandatory override to a risk level [three] status" was "required" — foreclosed any inquiry into whether the presumptive risk level three classification was in fact warranted | 1 | 2019–2019 |
| In re the Arbitration between Bevtek Corp. & Mr. Natural, Inc. neutral | 1 | 2010–2010 |
| Williams v. Pelican Pest Control, Inc. green | 1 | 2006–2006 |
| Campbell v. Rogers & Wells green | 1 | 2004–2004 |
| Resciniti v. Department of Motor Vehicles neutral | 1 | 2004–2004 |
| People v. Farris neutral | 1 | 2004–2004 |
| Adams v. Coughlin green | 1 | 1997–1997 |
| Lopez v. Coombe green | 1 | 1997–1997 |
| Morales v. Senkowski neutral | 1 | 1995–1995 |
| Martin v. Coughlin green | 1 | 1995–1995 |
| Rivera v. Coughlin green | 1 | 1995–1995 |
| Gonzales v. Coughlin green | 1 | 1995–1995 |
| Browder v. United States green | 1 | 1995–1995 |
| People v. Skinner green | 1 | 1993–1993 |
| Fire Dept. of New York v. . Gilmour green | 1 | 1983–1983 |
| Buckley v. Valeo green | 1 | 1977–1977 |
| People v. Goggins green | 1 | 1977–1977 |
| Evans v. Carey green | 1 | 1977–1977 |
| People v. Earle neutral | 1 | 1976–1976 |
| People v. Bradford neutral | 1 | 1976–1976 |
| People v. Cusano green | 1 | 1976–1976 |
| Rosenberg v. State neutral | 1 | 1968–1968 |
| In re the Estate of Hurewitz neutral | 1 | 1962–1962 |
| Matter of Loomis green | 1 | 1962–1962 |
| Nasaba Corp. v. Harfred Realty Corp. green | 1 | 1957–1957 |
| Rochester v. Bergen neutral | 1 | 1957–1957 |
| Rycroft v. Pierce neutral | 1 | 1955–1955 |
| Union Trust Co. v. J. A. Smith Milling Co. neutral | 1 | 1955–1955 |
| Herbert Land Co. v. Lorenzen neutral | 1 | 1908–1908 |
| Wheeler v. . Sweet green | 1 | 1903–1903 |
Opinions by the citing court's state. A doctrine retained in one state and abandoned in another shows up here as a year span that stalls.