English rule (Ohio) · Go Syfert
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English rule in Ohio

35 Ohio opinions name it 10 courts 1831–2022 2 in the last five years

The cases below were cited by Ohio courts in a sentence that names this issue. Sides come from how each citing opinion treated the case (Syfertize flag on that citation), so a case can appear on both: that is where the law is contested. A red or yellow chip is the case's own overall treatment.

Followed or applied (7)

CaseFollowedCited
Surace v. Wuligergreen
ohio · 1986 · cited in 2 Ohio opinions naming this issue, 2022–2022
2 sentences

2022See Surace v. Wuliger, 25 Ohio St.3d 229, 231-233 , 495 N.E.2d 939 (1986). {¶ 21} Early on, this court acknowledged that there were many views on the litigation privilege, ranging from absolute privilege for all statements made during judicial proceedings, to all relevant statements made during judicial proceedings, to all not false and malicious statements made during judicial proceedings.

2022In State v. Brown, __Ohio St.3d__, 2022-Ohio-4347 , the No. 22AP-242 8 court observed that while the privilege "is a deeply rooted common-law rule that protects individuals from defamation lawsuits," it described the "English rule" as "broad" and contrasted it with Ohio's version of the rule, which "limits the types of defamatory statements that are considered privileged and limits the circumstances in which the privilege applies." Id. at ¶ 20, citing Surace v. Wuliger, 25 Ohio St.3d 229, 231-233 (1986).

22
Erie County Farmers' Ins. v. Creceliusgreen
· 1930 · cited in 2 Ohio opinions naming this issue, 1986–2022
2 sentences

2022See id. at 213 ; Mauk v. Brundage, 68 Ohio St. 89 , 97-98, 67 N.E. 152 (1903); Levy v. Littleford, 19 Ohio Dec. 604 , 605-606, 1909 Ohio Misc.

1986Then, in Erie County, supra, this court held in the syllabus: “No action will lie for any defamatory statement made by a party to a court proceeding, in a pleading filed in such proceeding, where the defamatory statement is material and relevant to the issue.” This court noted in Erie County at 212-213 that the “English rule” allows no action for any defamatory statement made in a pleading, even where the statement is false, malicious or irrelevant to the matter in which it appears.

12
Arthur Theiss v. Gordon H. Scherergreen
ca6 · 1968 · cited in 1 Ohio opinions naming this issue, 2022–2022
2 sentences

2022The English rule, as explained above, is broad, see Theiss v. Scherer, 396 F.2d 646, 649 (6th Cir.1968); whereas the American rule, which was adopted by this court, limits the types of defamatory statements that are considered privileged and limits the circumstances in which the privilege applies.

2022The English rule, as explained above, is broad, see Theiss v. Scherer, 396 F.2d 646, 649 (6th Cir.1968); whereas the American rule, which was adopted by this court, limits the types of defamatory statements that are considered privileged and limits the circumstances in which the privilege applies.

11
State v. Phillipsgreen
ohio · 1995 · cited in 1 Ohio opinions naming this issue, 2020–2020
2 sentences

2020See State v. Phillips, 74 Ohio St.3d 72, 92 , 656 N.E.2d 643 (1995) (Noting that a reviewing court generally presumes regularity in the trial court, unless the record demonstrates otherwise.).

2020See State v. Phillips, 74 Ohio St.3d 72, 92 , 656 N.E.2d 643 (1995) (Noting that a reviewing court generally presumes regularity in the trial court, unless the record demonstrates otherwise.).

11
Gaudette v. Webbgreen
mass · 1972 · cited in 1 Ohio opinions naming this issue, 1991–1991
2 sentences

1991I am also persuaded by the holding of the Massachusetts Supreme Court in Gaudette v. Webb (1972), 362 Mass. 60, 71 , 284 N.E.2d 222, 229 (“Upon consideration of the Moragne decision and the sound reasoning upon which it is based, we are convinced that the law in this Commonwealth has also evolved to the point where it may now be held that the right to recovery for wrongful death is of common law origin, and we so hold.”) Finally, I am persuaded by the fact that the majority’s holding, carried to its logical conclusion, is absolutely absurd.

1991I am also persuaded by the holding of the Massachusetts Supreme Court in Gaudette v. Webb (1972), 362 Mass. 60, 71 , 284 N.E.2d 222, 229 (“Upon consideration of the Moragne decision and the sound reasoning upon which it is based, we are convinced that the law in this Commonwealth has also evolved to the point where it may now be held that the right to recovery for wrongful death is of common law origin, and we so hold.”) Finally, I am persuaded by the fact that the majority’s holding, carried to its logical conclusion, is absolutely absurd.

11
Solem v. Helmred
scotus · 1983 · cited in 1 Ohio opinions naming this issue, 1987–1987
1 sentence

1987Blackstone, Commentaries *16-* 19 (1769) (hereinafter Blackstone); see also id., at *16-* 17 (in condemning ‘punishments of unreasonable severity,’ uses ‘cruel’ to mean severe or excessive.) * * * “When the Framers of the Eighth Amendment adopted the language of the English Bill of Rights, they also adopted the English principle of proportionality.

11
Hiatt v. Hiattgreen
neb · 1945 · cited in 1 Ohio opinions naming this issue, 1953–1953
2 sentences

1953See Hiatt v. Hiatt (1945), 146 Neb., 652 , 20 N. W. (2d), 921 ; Kimball v. Scribner (App. Div. 1916), 161 N. Y.

1953See Hiatt v. Hiatt (1945), 146 Neb., 652 , 20 N. W. (2d), 921 ; Kimball v. Scribner (App. Div. 1916), 161 N. Y.

11

Distinguished, questioned or overruled (0)

CaseNegativeCited
No negative-treatment citations attached to this issue in Ohio. Read the followed side critically anyway.

Also cited on this issue (48)

CaseCitedYears
King v. Reynolds green
ala · 1880
2 sentences

1950The Common Pleas Court took notice of the conflict..in. the. decisions., in different jurisdictions, and then said: “In consideration of the principles and reasons adduced in these various cases I incline to the English doctrine and adopt the reasoning of King v. Reynolds, 67 Ala. 229 .” The court also called attention to a feature of the case that would prevent the application of the contrary doctrine, and that was the provision relating to the space in the stable for the lessee’s horse and carriage, and on that subject said: “I am moreover of the opinion that in the case at bar there would b

1950The Common Pleas Court took notice of the conflict..in. the. decisions., in different jurisdictions, and then said: “In consideration of the principles and reasons adduced in these various cases I incline to the English doctrine and adopt the reasoning of King v. Reynolds, 67 Ala. 229 .” The court also called attention to a feature of the case that would prevent the application of the contrary doctrine, and that was the provision relating to the space in the stable for the lessee’s horse and carriage, and on that subject said: “I am moreover of the opinion that in the case at bar there would b

21905–1950
Garrett v. Pierson green
iowa · 1870
2 sentences

1888But we have been able to find but two cases in the United States which seem to adopt the English doctrine: Re Bogart, 28 Hun. 466 ; and Garrett v. Pearson, 29 Iowa, 304 .

1888But we have been able to find but two cases in the United States which seem to adopt the English doctrine: Re Bogart, 28 Hun. 466 ; and Garrett v. Pearson, 29 Iowa, 304 .

21888–1888
People v. Howell green
· 1809
2 sentences

1835In New York, in 1794, the English rule was adopted; but, in The People v. Howell, 4 Johns. 296 , Chief Justice Kent says: “Since that time, the question of interest in a witness has-been examined and defined with more precision, both in England and New York, and the exclusion of the party in the case of forgery has become an anomaly in the law of evidence; and it would seem to be fit ánd proper that the rule should no longer he applied.” Different decisions have been made, it is said, in different circuits in this state; and to produce a uniformity of decision on a question so important to the

1835In New York, in 1794, the English rule was adopted; but, in The People v. Howell, 4 Johns. 296 , Chief Justice Kent says: “Since that time, the question of interest in a witness has-been examined and defined with more precision, both in England and New York, and the exclusion of the party in the case of forgery has become an anomaly in the law of evidence; and it would seem to be fit ánd proper that the rule should no longer he applied.” Different decisions have been made, it is said, in different circuits in this state; and to produce a uniformity of decision on a question so important to the

21831–1835
State v. Brown neutral
ohio · 2022
1 sentence

2022In State v. Brown, __Ohio St.3d__, 2022-Ohio-4347 , the No. 22AP-242 8 court observed that while the privilege "is a deeply rooted common-law rule that protects individuals from defamation lawsuits," it described the "English rule" as "broad" and contrasted it with Ohio's version of the rule, which "limits the types of defamatory statements that are considered privileged and limits the circumstances in which the privilege applies." Id. at ¶ 20, citing Surace v. Wuliger, 25 Ohio St.3d 229, 231-233 (1986).

12022–2022
Smith v. Phillips green
scotus · 1982
2 sentences

2020The core of our analysis, however, is “is the fairness of the trial, not the culpability of the prosecutor.” State v. Pickens, 141 Ohio St.3d 462 , 2014- Ohio-5445, 25 N.E.3d 1023, ¶ 110 , quoting Smith v. Phillips, 455 U.S. 209, 219 , 102 S.Ct. 940 , 71 L.Ed.2d 78 (1982). {¶72} We first reject English’s claim that the prosecutor’s elicitation and improper use of character and other-acts evidence, referenced in the previous assignment of error, was misconduct that resulted in an unfair trial.

2020The core of our analysis, however, is “is the fairness of the trial, not the culpability of the prosecutor.” State v. Pickens, 141 Ohio St.3d 462 , 2014- Ohio-5445, 25 N.E.3d 1023, ¶ 110 , quoting Smith v. Phillips, 455 U.S. 209, 219 , 102 S.Ct. 940 , 71 L.Ed.2d 78 (1982). {¶72} We first reject English’s claim that the prosecutor’s elicitation and improper use of character and other-acts evidence, referenced in the previous assignment of error, was misconduct that resulted in an unfair trial.

12020–2020
State v. Pickens (Slip Opinion) green
ohio · 2014
2 sentences

2020The core of our analysis, however, is “is the fairness of the trial, not the culpability of the prosecutor.” State v. Pickens, 141 Ohio St.3d 462 , 2014- Ohio-5445, 25 N.E.3d 1023, ¶ 110 , quoting Smith v. Phillips, 455 U.S. 209, 219 , 102 S.Ct. 940 , 71 L.Ed.2d 78 (1982). {¶72} We first reject English’s claim that the prosecutor’s elicitation and improper use of character and other-acts evidence, referenced in the previous assignment of error, was misconduct that resulted in an unfair trial.

2020The core of our analysis, however, is “is the fairness of the trial, not the culpability of the prosecutor.” State v. Pickens, 141 Ohio St.3d 462 , 2014- Ohio-5445, 25 N.E.3d 1023, ¶ 110 , quoting Smith v. Phillips, 455 U.S. 209, 219 , 102 S.Ct. 940 , 71 L.Ed.2d 78 (1982). {¶72} We first reject English’s claim that the prosecutor’s elicitation and improper use of character and other-acts evidence, referenced in the previous assignment of error, was misconduct that resulted in an unfair trial.

12020–2020
Muskopf v. Corning Hospital District red
cal · 1961
2 sentences

2001Dist. (1961), 55 Cal.2d 211, 214-216 , 11 Cal.Rptr. 89, 90-92 , 359 P.2d 457, 458-460 . {¶ 19} Indeed, the Declaration of Independence is an expression of why this country chose to sever ties with English rule.

2001Dist. (1961), 55 Cal.2d 211, 214-216 , 11 Cal.Rptr. 89, 90-92 , 359 P.2d 457, 458-460 . {¶ 19} Indeed, the Declaration of Independence is an expression of why this country chose to sever ties with English rule.

12001–2001
Moragne v. States Marine Lines, Inc. green
scotus · 1970
2 sentences

1991The court in Moragne also concluded that the English rule was adopted in this country without much question and, most likely, because the rule “had the blessing of age.” Id. at 386 , 90 S.Ct. at 1780 , 26 L.Ed.2d at 348 .

1991The court in Moragne also concluded that the English rule was adopted in this country without much question and, most likely, because the rule “had the blessing of age.” Id. at 386 , 90 S.Ct. at 1780 , 26 L.Ed.2d at 348 .

11991–1991
Cline v. American Aggregates Corp. green
ohio · 1984
2 sentences

1990The Supreme Court in Cline v. American Aggregates Corp. (1984), 15 Ohio St. 3d 384 , overruled the long standing case of Frazier v. Brown (1861), 12 Ohio St. 294 , thereby abandoning the English rule of underground water use and adopting a reasonable use doctrine as stated in Restatement of the Law 2d, Torts (1979)-258, Section 858.

1990The Supreme Court in Cline v. American Aggregates Corp. (1984), 15 Ohio St. 3d 384 , overruled the long standing case of Frazier v. Brown (1861), 12 Ohio St. 294 , thereby abandoning the English rule of underground water use and adopting a reasonable use doctrine as stated in Restatement of the Law 2d, Torts (1979)-258, Section 858.

11990–1990
Meeker v. City of East Orange green
nj · 1909
2 sentences

1984Law 623, 74 A. 379 , the New Jersey Supreme Court explained at 637-638 that: “It is sometimes said that unless the English rule be adopted, landowners will be hampered in the development of their property because of the uncertainty that would thus be thrown about their rights.

1984Law 623, 74 A. 379 , the New Jersey Supreme Court explained at 637-638 that: “It is sometimes said that unless the English rule be adopted, landowners will be hampered in the development of their property because of the uncertainty that would thus be thrown about their rights.

11984–1984
Katz v. Walkinshaw green
cal · 1903
1 sentence

1984The injustice of the English rule was best summed up by the California Supreme Court in Katz v. Walkinshaw (1903), 141 Cal. 116 , 74 P. 766 , where the court stated at 128: “Traced to its true foundation, the rule is simply this: that owing to the difficulties the courts will meet in securing persons from the infliction of great wrong and injustice by the diversion of percolating water, if any property right in such water is recognized, the task must be abandoned as impossible, and those who have valuable property acquired by and dependent on the use of such water must be left to their own res

11984–1984
Philadelphia Ball Club, Ltd. v. Lajoie green
pa · 1902
2 sentences

1961The damages for the breach of such contracts cannot be estimated with any certainty, and the employer cannot, by means of any damages, purchase the same services in the labor market.” Pomeroy continues: — ■ “The more recent American cases are in accord with the English rule stated in the text, and where one person agrees to render personal service to another which require and presuppose a special knowledge, skill and ability in the employee, so that in case of default, the same services could not be easily obtained from others, equity will negatively enforce the contract by enjoining its breac

1961The damages for the breach of such contracts cannot be estimated with any certainty, and the employer cannot, by means of any damages, purchase the same services in the labor market.” Pomeroy continues: — ■ “The more recent American cases are in accord with the English rule stated in the text, and where one person agrees to render personal service to another which require and presuppose a special knowledge, skill and ability in the employee, so that in case of default, the same services could not be easily obtained from others, equity will negatively enforce the contract by enjoining its breac

11961–1961
Dumaine v. Dumaine green
mass · 1938
2 sentences

1955This question was definitely determined by this court in the case of Lamb v. Lehmann, Trustee, supra. In the course of the opinion in that case, the court referred to the English rule, the Pennsylvania rule, and the Massachusetts rule on this subject and then said: “The third rule, known as the Massachusetts rule, regards cash dividends, whether ordinary or extraordinary, as income, and regards stock dividends, so called, as capital, without regard to the period when the same were earned.

1955This question was definitely determined by this court in the case of Lamb v. Lehmann, Trustee, supra. In the course of the opinion in that case, the court referred to the English rule, the Pennsylvania rule, and the Massachusetts rule on this subject and then said: “The third rule, known as the Massachusetts rule, regards cash dividends, whether ordinary or extraordinary, as income, and regards stock dividends, so called, as capital, without regard to the period when the same were earned.

11955–1955
Kimball v. Scribner neutral
nyappdiv · 1916
2 sentences

1953See Hiatt v. Hiatt (1945), 146 Neb., 652 , 20 N. W. (2d), 921 ; Kimball v. Scribner (App. Div. 1916), 161 N. Y.

1953See Hiatt v. Hiatt (1945), 146 Neb., 652 , 20 N. W. (2d), 921 ; Kimball v. Scribner (App. Div. 1916), 161 N. Y.

11953–1953
Wright v. . Wright green
ny · 1919
2 sentences

1952In another of the decisions representing the weight of authority (Wright et al., Trustees, v. Wright, 225 N. Y., 329, 340 , 122 N. E., 213, 217 ), it is stated iu the court’s opinion: “* * * in respect of a residuary clause where the legacy which has failed and lapsed was intended to be a disposition of part of the residue.

1952In another of the decisions representing the weight of authority (Wright et al., Trustees, v. Wright, 225 N. Y., 329, 340 , 122 N. E., 213, 217 ), it is stated iu the court’s opinion: “* * * in respect of a residuary clause where the legacy which has failed and lapsed was intended to be a disposition of part of the residue.

11952–1952
Waln's Estate green
pa · 1893
2 sentences

1952“If the question were new in this state, speaking for myself I should not hesitate to reject the English rule as wrong in principle and subversive of the great canon of construction, the carrying out of the intent of the testator. * * *” The rule was further criticized by the same court in Waln’s Estate, 156 Pa., 194, 197 , 27 A., 59 .

1952“If the question were new in this state, speaking for myself I should not hesitate to reject the English rule as wrong in principle and subversive of the great canon of construction, the carrying out of the intent of the testator. * * *” The rule was further criticized by the same court in Waln’s Estate, 156 Pa., 194, 197 , 27 A., 59 .

11952–1952
Kavanaugh v. Watt neutral
wis · 1910
2 sentences

1949In In re Kavanaugh’s Estate, 126 N. W.

1949In In re Kavanaugh’s Estate, 126 N. W.

11949–1949
Parker v. Cobe green
· 1911
2 sentences

1948T., 918, the court said: “Now it seems to me that the origin of the rule, that where money is bequeathed to be invested in the purchase of an annuity it must be regarded as a vested legacy from- the death of the testator of the sum that will purchase the annuity, was the idea that it was a matter of indifference whether the annuitant had his annuity purchased for him or received in cash the sum that would purchase it, because, if the annuity was purchased for him, he could sell it the next day.” - The English rule was followed by the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts in the case of Parke

1948T., 918, the court said: “Now it seems to me that the origin of the rule, that where money is bequeathed to be invested in the purchase of an annuity it must be regarded as a vested legacy from- the death of the testator of the sum that will purchase the annuity, was the idea that it was a matter of indifference whether the annuitant had his annuity purchased for him or received in cash the sum that would purchase it, because, if the annuity was purchased for him, he could sell it the next day.” - The English rule was followed by the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts in the case of Parke

11948–1948
Mabee v. Mabee green
njch · 1915
2 sentences

1943Court of Chancery) 96 Atl. 495 , the court said in the fifth syllabus: “The English rule that the doctrine of lis pendens is not applicable to personal property other than chattel interest in land is probably not the rule in the United States.” The court held that the complainant created a lis pendens by her initial proceeding but had done more by securing an injunction, the effect of which was to impound the fund under consideration in the hands and custody of the administrator of the estate from which the plaintiff was claiming against a legacy given to plaintiff’s husband.

1943Court of Chancery) 96 Atl. 495 , the court said in the fifth syllabus: “The English rule that the doctrine of lis pendens is not applicable to personal property other than chattel interest in land is probably not the rule in the United States.” The court held that the complainant created a lis pendens by her initial proceeding but had done more by securing an injunction, the effect of which was to impound the fund under consideration in the hands and custody of the administrator of the estate from which the plaintiff was claiming against a legacy given to plaintiff’s husband.

11943–1943
Bridgeport Trust Co. v. Fowler green
· 1925
1 sentence

1938Ch. 334 , Bridgeport v Fowler, 102 Conn. 318 , Graingers’ Exrx. v Pennebaker, 247 Ky. 324 .

11938–1938
Grainger's Ex'rs Trustees v. Pennebaker green
kyctapphigh · 1932
11938–1938
York v. Maryland Trust Co. green
md · 1926
1 sentence

1938The New York and English rule should be considered together, as they are based upon the same fundamental theories and reasonings. •Among the cases championing the New York-English rule are the following: Williamson v Williamson, 6 Paige 98 (N. Y. 1837), Matter of Benson, 96 N. Y. 499 , Matter of Ryan, 140 Misc. 364 , Matter of Reese, 141 Misc. 428 , Wethered v Safe Deposit Trust Co., 79 Md. 153 , York v Maryland Trust Co., 150 Md. 354 , Proctor v American Sec. & Trust Co., 98 Fed. (2d), 599, Equitable Trust Co. v Kent, 11 Del.

11938–1938
Matter of Accounting of Benson green
· 1884
1 sentence

1938The New York and English rule should be considered together, as they are based upon the same fundamental theories and reasonings. •Among the cases championing the New York-English rule are the following: Williamson v Williamson, 6 Paige 98 (N. Y. 1837), Matter of Benson, 96 N. Y. 499 , Matter of Ryan, 140 Misc. 364 , Matter of Reese, 141 Misc. 428 , Wethered v Safe Deposit Trust Co., 79 Md. 153 , York v Maryland Trust Co., 150 Md. 354 , Proctor v American Sec. & Trust Co., 98 Fed. (2d), 599, Equitable Trust Co. v Kent, 11 Del.

11938–1938
In re the Estate of Ryan neutral
nysurct · 1931
11938–1938
In re the Estate of Reese neutral
nysurct · 1930
1 sentence

1938The New York and English rule should be considered together, as they are based upon the same fundamental theories and reasonings. •Among the cases championing the New York-English rule are the following: Williamson v Williamson, 6 Paige 98 (N. Y. 1837), Matter of Benson, 96 N. Y. 499 , Matter of Ryan, 140 Misc. 364 , Matter of Reese, 141 Misc. 428 , Wethered v Safe Deposit Trust Co., 79 Md. 153 , York v Maryland Trust Co., 150 Md. 354 , Proctor v American Sec. & Trust Co., 98 Fed. (2d), 599, Equitable Trust Co. v Kent, 11 Del.

11938–1938
Equitable Trust Co. v. Kent neutral
delch · 1917
11938–1938
Wethered v. Safe Deposit & Trust Co. neutral
md · 1894
11938–1938
Harris v. Esterbrook green
sd · 1929
11934–1934
McClintock v. Central Bank neutral
· 1894
11933–1933
Kegan v. Park Bank green
mo · 1928
11933–1933
Phinney v. Boston Elevated Railway Co. neutral
mass · 1909
11921–1921
In Re the Accounting of Osborne green
· 1913
11915–1915
San Francisco Savings Union v. R. G. R. Petroleum & Mining Co. green
cal · 1904
11914–1914
Loomis v. Lehigh Valley Railroad green
scotus · 1916
11913–1913
Henry v. Tupper green
vt · 1857
11913–1913
Hagar v. Buck green
· 1872
11913–1913
Johnson v. Northwestern Mutual Life Ins. neutral
minn · 1894
11907–1907
Robinson v. Cropsey neutral
nychanct · 1833
11907–1907
Washburn v. Bank of Bellows Falls green
· 1847
11884–1884
Vanderkemp v. Shelton green
nychanct · 1844
11876–1876

Where else courts name it

NY 153 (1800–2018) PA 69 (1835–2024) IL 68 (1849–2017) TX 58 (1855–2024) CA 58 (1859–2025) MD 54 (1891–2016) NJ 50 (1864–2021) MO 47 (1857–2008) AL 44 (1834–2014) VA 40 (1835–2009) NC 37 (1882–1981) GA 37 (1848–2024) OH 35 (1831–2022) IN 33 (1842–2019) MI 33 (1874–2023) IA 31 (1867–2022) FL 29 (1855–2022) KY 28 (1868–2025) TN 26 (1875–2017) RI 24 (1851–2016) OR 23 (1888–2017) AZ 22 (1874–2025) WI 22 (1843–2024) WV 22 (1885–2020) VT 20 (1844–2008) NE 19 (1897–2005) CT 19 (1839–2025) AR 19 (1894–2025) DE 17 (1838–2022) CO 17 (1879–1966) MA 17 (1848–1939) OK 15 (1912–2025) HI 14 (1900–1985) UT 14 (1896–2023) KS 13 (1900–2020) MN 13 (1894–1991) MT 12 (1882–2006) WA 11 (1906–1968) SC 11 (1817–2021) DC 9 (1889–2011) NH 7 (1850–1928) NM 7 (1897–2013) NV 7 (1878–1993) ND 7 (1891–1975) MS 7 (1873–2018) LA 6 (1893–2004) PR 5 (1921–1956) WY 5 (1948–1986) ID 4 (1911–1968) ME 4 (1881–2010) SD 3 (1894–1911) VI 2 (2006–2014)

Opinions by the citing court's state. A doctrine retained in one state and abandoned in another shows up here as a year span that stalls.

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